well sure, sometimes i FEEL like knocking them upside their heads… February 29, 2008
A case in Hancock County in which a school administrator hit a student so hard the child needed medical attention is leading to a lot of discussion . Over at Roane Views, White’s Creek says:
When our first child is very young, all parents face decisions on how to raise, teach, and discipline them. To Spank or not to spank?
Most school systems have wisely eliminated corporal punishment for a couple of reasons. There’s no evidence it works and there are all sorts of opportunities for abuse. Why any school system still allows paddling elementary schools children is beyond me…
Coincidentally, this story broke the same day a new study was released indicating that children who are spanked are more likely to develop risky sexual behaviors as adults.
(For the record, I’m a mother to four kids, and I don’t believe in hitting them…or hitting anyone else in my family, for that matter.)
oh puuuuhleeese…risky sexual behaviors as adults??? what kind of slanted population are they quizzing for this one? Did they interview kids with insane violent parents who beat them with belts whenever the parents had a bad day and called it “spanking”?
My entire high school should have been a bunch of little hookers because of course we all came from the era where spanking was an appropriate response to a deliberate misdeed of a certain magnitude. As far as i know…most of them didn’t grow up to be slut of the year. The few who did, I believe had some fairly obvious family risk factors that had nothing to do with spanking.
oh God…Murray Straus. I shoulda known. You do realize that his “random sample” is guys in prison don’t you? For his various spanking studies he interviews a bunch of prisoners, asks em if they were spanked and draws a link. Of course he conveniently fails to distinguish what they experienced in their youth with calm rational parents who discipline their children for real reasons and aren’t just whaling on em because they just chugged a fifth of Jack Daniels. You should also know of Murray Straus’ other pet research area..however you probably don’t because his two “specialties” tend to appeal to diametrically opposed segments of society. He has pretty much trashed the “woman as victim” model of domestic violence. He had done “studies” which pretty much make out women to be far far more violent than men. Google it. Men’s rights groups LOVE him and quote him constantly.
I am not familiar with this researcher; but I completely disagree with his hypothosis. I’m not commenting on spanking vs not spanking, however I find his results very slanted.
Suzette: like I said: google this man. I linked to the article Katie posted and like I said, I shoulda known it would be Murray Straus. What I find highly ironic is that most of the people who would use his research to push their anti spanking agenda would be horrified to know that he pretty much disses the feminist view on domestic violence. he has also done a lot of “research” in this matter that “proves” that women are far more violent than men and the whole “violence against women” bit is just a whole lotta male bashing. Like I said: diametrically opposed segments of society. Strange bedfellows if you will.
How is hitting your spouse against the law but hitting a helpless child with no way to leave or protect themselves ok? Our society is so f’ed up!
very bad logic here Denette. There are a lot of things parents do to their kids that would be totally inappropriate in other relationships. Would you tell your husband that because he didn’t do the dishes, he can’t watch TV tonight? (well…some women do…but there is a word for those men….I think its pussywhipped….). Would you send your co worker to his/her cubicle for sassing you so they can “think it over”? Would you take your friend’s toys into protective custody because she disrespected you? I think not. The parent/child dynamic is different from any other relationship. What is TRULY messed up this society is that people use bad logic and bad analogies and think constantly in black and white terms and seem totally incapable of thinking in any shades of gray or with any degree of critical thought. They simply react. And pull things out of hats.
very bad logic here Denette. There are a lot of things parents do to their kids that would be totally inappropriate in other relationships. Would you tell your husband that because he didn’t do the dishes, he can’t watch TV tonight? (well…some women do…but there is a word for those men….I think its pussywhipped….). Would you send your co worker to his/her cubicle for sassing you so they can “think it over”? Would you take your friend’s toys into protective custody because she disrespected you? I think not. The parent/child dynamic is different from any other relationship.
oops. sorry about the repeat
I agree that parents need to be in charge, not friends (maybe as adults we can befriend our children). But.. respect and order can be accomplished without hitting people. Hitting is something we all feel like doing, like a base instinct. But it accomplishes nothing except modeling bullying to the child. It shows a lack of resources and imagination in parenting. As for the study, the freakiest people I know grew up with gentle discipline!
After googling this “reasearcher” I have decided to not waste my time reading any of his “studies”. Scratching him off my list of things to do this weekend.
I think it is a very sad statement indeed about an adult if the only way that they can get their child to behave in an appropriate way is to strike them.
If I walked up to any adult in the street and boxed their ears, I would be arrested and charged with assault. Is there some magical age (18?) where children suddenly become worthy of the same rights we adults have?
Nope Leigh, I don’t do those things to my spouse or my child. I don’t believe in rewards or punishment for children. They are humans and deserve respect.
Just for the record: I don’t spank my children. I did a couple of times when they were very young, but I have found far too many other things that work. I did recieve spankings as a child, and some of them were too much. I still don’t like this guy’s hypothesis.
wow Denette. You have never had to discipline your kids in any way? And they are perfect kids who never sass you, never disobey you? Oh yeah, thats right, they love you so much they wouldn’t even think about it. Yeah right. I bet you are one of those people who think your kids are angels but the people at the next table from you at Chili’s probably will tell a different story.
You know, next time a cop pulls me over for speeding and writes me a ticket, I will have to remind him that consequences are not respectful. And I really need to stop letting my kids do that pizza hut reading slip program because you know, rewards aren’t very respectful to them.
You’re whacked. That’s all.
> Leigh wrote: ” You’re whacked. That’s all.”
I can’t say that I have a high regard for your methods of conflict resolution, Leigh.
People can raise their children without hitting them. That doesn’t mean that they have an unfettered journey of bliss in their interactions with one another, it just means that they have taken another *possible* path. In that path it is probable that ’sass you’ or ‘disobey you’ are not obstacle that one encounters often. In fact, if I may attempt in my own poor way to explain, beg your pardon if I do it badly, if one doesn’t tend to see certain behaviors in a preconceived black/white box of thinking, one is better able to clearly and with a fresh eye be present in everyday interactions in ways that allow the data of the moment, not a rigid hierarchy of shame and blame, to power the communication.
An analogy might be learning how to turn off the fuses in the fuse box so that the energies/powers of the conflict are defused and the true picture become clearer.
Disobey me? Children have needs that need to be met as adults do. My son has a need to throw flour all over the floor and I have a need for him not to so I take him outside and let him throw dirt instead. Is he throwing flour to make me mad or disobey me? No, he is doing it because he thinks it will be fun (and I’m sure it is) and he has the impulse to. Sometimes kids can’t control their impulses just like adults can’t. When growing up I want my children to think of how something effects other people as well. If I punish a child I’m telling that child that “If you do X and your caught this will happen.” The real world isn’t like that. You won’t get caught most of the time for doing bad things. The motivation for not doing the wrong thing should come from inside not from being worried about being punished. Likewise the motivation for doing the right thing shouldn’t be that you will be rewarded.
Your motivation for not speeding should be that you could hurt someone if you are unable to stop your car not that you will get a ticket. Your child’s motivation for reading should be because they enjoy books not to get a pizza.
Rewards and punishments are both forms of manipulation as I see it and they don’t work.
no, I am honest. Denette IS whacked because she is in total denial of a facet of human motivation. It sounds very lovely for people to have that higher motivation and it IS a goal. However, it has long been an established fact that the brains ability to engage in that kind of reasoning doesn’t kick in until at LEAST early teens. And that is being very very optimistic. Countless experiments of gradeless schools and removing incentives seem to bear this out. Right behavior can start with rewards and incentives but ultimately needs to move on. If you think I have only taught my kids rewards and punishment you would be wrong. It is a tool to get them on the path but I have always always pointed them towards the bigger reasons for doing things. Yeah, I want my kids to read because they like it. My older one probably wouldn’t have cared whether she was rewarded or not. she taught herself very young. My younger. Not so much. So what if he starts out reading because he wants that pizza and discovers along the way its kinda fun. Without that incentive he may not have been motivated to even get his feet wet and it would be a big battle and he wouldn’t believe us that he might enjoy it (and isn’t that an incentive too? learn to read and you will have FUN) You ignore the findings of researchers such as Kohlberg who staged the types of moral reasoning that one could expect at different ages. Little kids are just not capable of the kind of motivation you would like. I don’t know what planet you are on Denette, but on mine, rewards and punishments work just fine. They work better if they are a tool to point kids along to the real reasons to do stuff but without them, getting them to that final stage is a whole lot harder.
Actually I try real hard to get on my kids level. i do it well. But that still has not eliminated the need for rewards and punishment at times. My usually awesome teen got a little snotty the other night and kept it going. Experience has taught me if I try and excuse it or make it right it gets worse. An immediate threat of allowance reduction changed that attitude real quick. You have your head in the sand if you do not think that this happens sometimes, even with kids whose parents DO see things from their point of view. What I do see is a lot of parents, particularly of teens, get their undies in a bunch over stupid stuff. They wig out because their kid dyes their hair purple or wants to get pierced or tattooed. Then the kid does it themselves. They don’t know what is worth making a big stink about and what is not. and the kid feels disrespected about who they are. Or they try and channel their kid into what THEY want them to spend their life doing instead of helping the kid uncover their own gifts. Then they wonder why the adult kid minimizes contact with them. But hard and fast respect and boundary issues: sometimes they just want to see where that line is and you just dig yourself in deeper if you don’t set that line.
and Denette: redirection and trying to avoid situations where there will be trouble is good, but it can only get you so far. Sooner or later, your kid WILL do something that demands some form of correction. Even if you don’t believe in spanking, you WILL face situations that require some sort of consequence. I have seen all sorts of semantics twisting to avoid the use of the word “punishment” but I cannot imagine a kid never needing some negative consequence. Sure you don’t punish a kid for just having fun BUT if they are old enough to grasp “stop it” and you know they are capable of stopping it (whatever “it” is) and they don’t…what then? yeah, when my son gets too wild I make him go outside because part of proper boy management is making sure they tire themselves out. Preferably not by jumping up and down on the couches. But say he is throwing food at his sister, just for jollies and won’t stop? I would say an appropriate sanction then is in order. Perhaps no more TV for the rest of the night. I am sorry if you think that is “manipulation” but that is one of the ways in which people learn. You really need to grow up and learn what “manipulation” means, speak of which. A lot of namby pamby parents DO in fact manipulate while they are trying not to scar Johnny with something so old fashioned sounding as “punishment”. As in “you are making mommy sad when you do that” (a common thing for non punitive parents to say to try and motivate good behavior)…my gosh..that is one of the worst things you can say to a kid!!! You are setting them up to feel responsible for the happiness of others. You are setting them up to cross all kinds of boundaries and allow others to cross all kinds of boundaries with them as they get older.
I have to agree 100% with Leigh; children need limits, they also need logical consequences, or punishment, to learn. Their minds really cannot grasp that inward reason for doing the right thing until they are much older. I have been teaching high school for 20 years and I have seen first hand what happens when children have no punishment. If I understood your post correctly, you feel that when they become adults there will be no rewards nor punishments for behavior. That is false, I can’t imagine anyone thinking that to be true. Some people do not learn that inner appreciation for doing the right thing, they often find themselves in jail. Let’s face it, sometimes we do something nice just because we are seeking an award….perhaps a raise at work, a trophy, an emmy, a pat on the back. And sometimes we don’t act irresponsibly because we do not want to suffer the punishment; jail, divorce, fired from our job, or even losing face in the community. Have you never wanted to slap the person who takes your order at the drive through window? Of course I would never truly crawl through the speaker because of the punishmenbt I would recieve. If Denette doesn’t punish her children then I truly feel for the children.
Leigh-Really, calling me whacked over and over? That is an excellent way to prove your point.
Suzette-Sure when you are older you get rewards and punishments. But raises are proven to be poor motivators and if jail worked so well we wouldn’t have such a high level of repeat offenders. So many people use the same thing over and over again (like spanking) after it’s proven not to work. Also, I can’t believe that the only thing that would make you not slap another person is fear of the punishment you would get. What a sad reason!
Denette, I don’t really think you are grasping that it isn’t all black and white. Hopefully we all move towards the right reasons to do things as we get older. But that is very high functioning.It is not something that people grasp until they are well on their way to adulthood, certainly not as toddlers. You are making a huge assumption here and that is that parents who punish just whack away at their kids or punish etc without any explanation, any attempt to explain the whys. The older they get, the more they move towards abstract thinking (such as why they shouldn’t steal for reasons other than “they might get caught”) I imagine there are parents who DO just this, but they are not mature people capable of thinking in shades of gray. They are little more than children themselves. Just as someone who believes that “any” consequence is manipulation. I applaud Suzette’s honestly. Honest people will admit that fear of getting caught has occasionally been a motivator to not slap someone upside the head who well deserves it, even if most of the time they are well aware of right and wrong and wouldn’t do the wrong thing even if there wasn’t a risk of getting caught. I think you are a liar Denette because we have all felt that way, at least on occasion.
Denette, you’ve never wanted to slap someone up side the head? Just wait until menapause…it’ll happen. And to answer your next question: No, I have never slapped anyone, ever.
Leigh-What are you talking about? I didn’t say anything about those who punish in anyway do so with out explanation. Talk about assumptions! I also never said that I didn’t feel like slapping someone. I said that it’s sad that the fear of getting caught is the motivator for not hitting someone. It proves my whole point of why I try to teach my children to think about how their actions impact others and not just doing something for fear or punishments or for rewards. Christ! I get the feeling I’m on the O’Reilly Factor.
Suzette- I have slapped someone upside the head when I was younger and fear of the punishment (or the return hit) never crossed my mind.
So you are saying you are such a superior moral being that you have never been tempted to do something and only been held back by the possible consequences? There are two possibilities here: a)Jesus has a yet unknown twin sister named Denette or…b)you are in complete denial and/or knowingly lying so as to appear more moral than you actually are. Even people who by and large are motivated by a strong sense of right and wrong get tempted to do something every once in awhile that the fear of consequences nips right in the bud. Its called being human Denette. Try it. It might work for you. Never know.
You say fear of consequences does not work. I say its a tool on the way to helping kids learn the real moral reasons for stuff. You don’t get anywhere reasoning with a toddler. I have seen these parents telling a two year old “now Johnny doesn’t like it when you hit him with your bucket” And it does not work. So they excuse it away. Firmly going in and taking said bucket from the kid and saying that toys used to smack another kid in the face will get taken is a tactic that has in fact been known to get results.
Kids NEED and thrive on knowing what their boundaries are. It makes them feel safe knowing what their limits and boundaries are. Period! Society has gotten into this mind set of “oh I’ll hurt them or ruin them with this or that.”
In my opinion setting boundaries starts as early as 15 months. Toddlers know that if we say No in a stern voice mommy or daddy isn’t happy with what I am doing.
Also punishments and rewards are LIFE!!!!!! In school, work, ect ect. If we don’t do our homework we will be punished at school with detention. If we don’t do our work at our workplace we will get written up. If we do exceptional at our workplace we may get a raise or a promotion. If we do exceptional at school we may get the presidents award or not have to take mid terms or finals. These are goals to do well!!!
I have NEVER heard that punishments and rewards were not respectful…..weird.
thank you Summer. I will be curious to see where Denette’s kids are in a few years. Yeah, sure you need to move past the rewards and punishment to higher moral reasoning, but the rewards and punishment are definately a stepping stone to getting there. The first time I get pulled over for a ticket, maybe I am mad I got caught. But then I think about it and realize I COULD have caused an accident. I probably would not have had this realization without first being punished. I might have had to have had a full blown accident to realize this. I will drive more careful next time not just to avoid the ticket but also, hopefully, because I realize its safer. we are of course assuming the nonexistence of artificially lowered speed traps designed specifically to generate income.
I’m all for spanking, but spanking in my view should be something that’s reserved for home use- not the school system.