so i went and saw “sicko” June 30, 2007
Last night , Jon and I joined some friends and a bunch of fellow Knoxville bloggers to go see Michaell Moore’s new movie, “Sicko.”
It is my hope that this movie, which is as Cathy says MORE A FORM OF POLITICAL PROTEST than a documentary, will one day be seen as the watershed moment that finally galvanized Americans to action on this critical issue..
Moore posits that our medical care system is completely broken. He focuses on three major points in exploring his thesis:
-Millions of Americans have zero health insurance, meaning they are living without any access to even the simplest health care.
-Even for Americans who have “good” health care, it’s a big, confusing ripoff. You pay your big premiums each month (and your employer is also paying out the nose), and while you may be “covered” if you get sick — and be able to get the treatment you need — you will then be bombarded by huge bills for uncovered services, copays and deductibles. Many, many insured Americans end up losing everything when the bills start rolling in after major medical care is needed.
-The fact that medical insurance companies are for-profit means that they will always seek to avoid paying for as many services as possible, meaning that many insured Americans needing medical care are denied treatments. Some of them die. Many of them suffer. And health insurance execs are among the most highly compensated Americans, making salaries in the 6 and 7 figures off the backs of a syetem where millions are struggling to pay their premiums and get the care they need.
One of my favorite parts of the movie was Moore’s conversation with the wildly entertaining elderly British Labour leader TONY BENN, who explained how the British ended up with nationalized health service (NHS). Benn, and the other British citizens (and some Americans living in London) Moore spoke with, obviously hold the NHS up as a point of patriotic pride. Started in 1948, as the British were reeling in the aftermath of what they had lived through in WWII, the NHS marked a sense of national hope and identity - a way for the Brits to say “we take care of our own — all of our own.”
That idea of “taking care of our own” was echoed by the every day Canadians with whom Moore spoke. They simply believe that it’s the upstanding thing to do to make sure that all of their neighbors have access to health care, and they are willing to pay part of their own incomes to provide it. It’s a low drama approach. It’s not about politics or fear of the socialist bogeyman or Hillary Clinton…they see it as simply The Right Thing To Do.
One of the most disturbing parts of the movie, and a sidenote of American history of which I hadn’t been aware, is how Edgar Kaiser (the guy behind the first and largest American HMO) convinced the Nixon administration to get behind HMOs by explaining that he had created profit incentives in his health insurance business to pay as little as possible in health care claims.
I support universal health care for all Americans. I supported it before I saw this movie and I support it more strongly now. There are various ways we could create such a system, but as the only western industrialized nation without universal health care, it’s absurd to suggest that it cannot be done.
I will likely write more about the movie and my thoughts on this issue later, but for now I am going to walk down the street to my neighborhood market and get a Coke. My favorite cashier there, Britney, is due back from her two week maternity leave today, and I think I’ll drop a few more dollars in the several jars and cans set up on the counter begging for help for various children in our community who are in need of operations and chemo that their parents cannot afford.
And you may want to consider giving poor Britney a decent tip. I’ve done the two-week maternity leave thing too, and it ain’t fun. But I’m self-employed and at least was working at home once my short leave (it was all that I could afford to pay myself for) was up.
Thanks for the great movie review.
I am blessed with good (state)insurance and am without any chronic health issues. However, I have had to fight with my insurance carrier on several occasions where they have made mistakes. I often wonder if they just have a system of trying to determine the threshold a person will pay before it is worth their time and energy to fight charges (for some it may be $25, others $100, some $1,000). My aunt who has breast cancer is 80 years old has been denied a lot of what I consider basic care. Her husband of 60 years was a WW2 veteran (survived D-Day) and served on the Chicago police force for 40+ years. Yet, our system treats his widow with disgrace.
I’ve got a lot of bad things to say about the NHS - and I wouldn’t trust Tony Benn as an objective observer (though yes he is fantastically entertaining - and I’m quite fond of him, I guess). But in my recent pregnancy and birth - the only thing I had to pay for was maternity clothes, my doula (which is totally discretionary) and pre-natal vitamins. And I could have got the vitamins for free if I’d asked for them on prescription (I get free prescription drugs for the duration of my pregnancy plus a year afterwards)
And the American system can’t go on as it is…and I would urge Americans not to look at the negative qualities of the NHS and write off the whole of universal coverage. The NHS was one of - if not the first - universal health care systems and so it has many of the problems that first adopters always do. There are better systems elsewhere - e.g. France.
“It is my hope that this movie, which is as Cathy says MORE A FORM OF POLITICAL PROTEST than a documentary, will one day be seen as the watershed moment that finally galvanized Americans to action on this critical issue..”
I’d be very surprised if this movie made any difference at all. Who goes to Michael Moore movies? I’d be willing to bet the vast majority of people who see “Sicko” already are in favor of universal health insurance. It’s not going to be epiphany time.
I am happy to pay for my health insurance and my health care. I’m not paying for any of yours unless we share an insurer and you’re paying your premiums too. Many of those with “zero” insurance can pay for it; they just choose not to because it’s “expensive” and they place priority on other things (not food and lights, I assure you).
Of course it’s expensive. They’re doctors. They’re smart, they work hard, and they use the highest technology that researchers from the evil corporations can provide.
God forbid we have universal health care. It’s not exactly working so well in Cuba or Canada, despite what Michael Moore might have you believe. What a load of crap.
Jenny, do you know any Cubans or Canadians?
Not necessarily being contrary, but the Canadian health care system has been something that I’ve envied my cousins, aunts, uncles, and grandparents having. The stories about the 6 month cat scan wait aren’t quite as realistic as they sound, and my cousin, with severe juvenile arthritis, has received some mighty good care while his parents, who don’t make a lot of money, haven’t had to break themselves paying for it.
That said, when my wife got terminally ill, my insurance (HMO) took care of everything. I didn’t even have to pay a deductible or co-payment. I got lucky.
“It’s not exactly working so well in Cuba or Canad”
Jenny, can you cite some examples?
Infant mortality rate in Candan: 4.75 out of 1000; In the US 7 out of 1000.
Life Expectancy Canada: 80; US 77
Per Capita Spending Canada: $3000; US: $5800
[...] Katie Allison Granju (see also) -review- [...]
I haven’t seen the movie yet but another sign the system is broken is doctors hating their jobs, doctors hating insurance companies because insurance companies are calling the shots, telling doctors in what order they can treat and test (which minimizes the role of doctor as diagnostician), effectively setting the terms of treatment in many cases, (including fertility treatments by the way). My former obstetrician remarked to me, “Lawyers would never have let this happened, allowed outsiders to control their businesses and their decisions.” (Former because she opted out of my health plan, a major one, because she didn’t like it. As did several other of my doctors.)
So the only people who are pleased as punch are the insurance companies. Also, even though we do not have universal healthcare, something like one-third of all healthcare costs are paid by the U.S. government, through Medicare and Medicaid, so all of us, every U.S. taxpayer, is being hit by higher costs which are being driven in part by a lack of choice for healthcare customers.
What I want to know is what is it going to take. I think many people already know much of what’s in the film, if not the specifics but a sense of the magnitude of the problem. Again, what do you think it’s going to take? What can any of us do? I hope the time has come for lawmakers to fix this mess. And this is one that might be fixable. Or at least vastly improved.
The thing is, many Americans who don’t want anything to do with a universal system, believe that ALL Americans are entitled to a basic level of education, police and fire protection, and postal service. We accept that there are weaknesses in these systems. Why not just privatize all of these things if it works so well?
Jenny, do you know me? I pay for my insurance, I teach, and I still can’t pay all of my medical bills on time if I want to eat that month if I take my daughter for the least of maladies.
I live in New Zealand but have already seen Sicko (thanks BitTorrent). I lived in England when my eldest son was born and thought the healthcare was fabulous in many ways (free mostly and very cheap prescriptions) but my postnatal care was not great - you might want to watch the recent Panorama expose on the crisis in the NHS maternity wards. I returned to New Zealand and found the totally free care I received during my subsequent two pregnancies and births to be world class and my own midwife of my choosing visited me at home for five weeks after my children were born. There are of course problems with our system but the American system appears totally money-driven and frankly, terrifying. I would never want to live in America. Imagine being made to choose between which finger you wanted sewn back on after an accident, the doctors charge you more for your index finger because it’s more useful to you. Sick.
Jenny,
Have you ever actually investigated the costs of private health insurance for someone whose job does not provide it? When our TennCare ends, our only option will be to pay hundreds and hundreds of dollars each month for insurance that with a 20% co-pay and an enormous deductible. Our prescriptions cost at least $1,500 each month due to chronic health conditions in the family. We can’t even afford to pay premiums, let alone all the rest of it and I don’t know what we will do. I don’t think you really have the faintest idea what you are talking about.
Jenny unfortunately made my point for me. It’s just this simple. Americans are not, by and large, at all decent or educated. Americans have no sense of responsibility for their fellow Americans. Americans do not care about our shared experiences as human beings. Jenny’s attitude encapsulates what has become for me one of the saddest truths that I have had to learn in the good old U. S. of A.: we are not, for the most part, very nice people. Despite all of our Christian posturing, despite our chest puffery to the otherwise. It’s all about I, Me, Mine and screw the other guy if at all possible for the Jennys of this country…and unfortunately, if they are not in the majority, they are in a very large, very influential, very disgusting minority.
I got sick on my first trip to England and was sent to a National Health hospital. I was treated well, very graciously. The only difference that I saw was that it took quite a long while (several hours) to see an actual doctor. I was in a bed in their triage unit and was attended to by a nurse, though. I was very sick, but it was NOT an emergency (no blood, no broken bones, no threat to my life). The visit did not cost me a dime, and they never once asked me about my nationality, ability to pay, health insurance, whatever.
I have a friend of mine who has a serious chronic illness and cannot afford all of the medication that he needs. So, he picks and chooses what he takes each month. Oh, and did I mention that he has excellent health insurance, is gainfully employed, owns his own home, and is a responsible white person? No, Jenny, he isn’t one of “them darkies” or other trash underneath your self-righteous, ignorant feet. You never mentioned race, Jenny, but I will bet you anything that you have a problem with people of color. People like you always do.
Katie, sorry for the rant. I didn’t get to see the movie, and I don’t know if right now I can handle it. With Andy being killed in May, and dealing with the concept of losing my brother over in Iraq while Resident Cokehead goes fishing this weekend with the rest of the Bush mafia crime family, I don’t know if I can handle any more controversy right now.
I also saw the Movie on Friday, I too loved it.
Did you see the French postpartum Doula helping the mom and baby by doing the laundry? Michael Moore got a kick out of the notion that the French Government provides families with help after the birth. Did you all know that is where the idea of doulas originally came from (the anthropologist Dana Raphael observed other first world counties that provide postpartum care to families and wrote a book about it in the late 1970’s as the way to increase breastfeeding rates in the USA). I’m in NYC and get many European working families who are still covered by their home country’s health insurance while working in the USA and the woman is fully reimbursed for my postpartum doula fee. Europeans cannot believe that American women have to pay privately for help after the birth.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I second Laura’s rant towards Jenny. I feel the same way about most Americans they just do not give a shit about anyone else. The more our leader and the right leaning agenda takes hold in our country and people talking about religion and god it seems to have covered up that our nation has stopped caring for the less fortunate among us.
I have received wonderful health care in Canada and the wait for operations is on a triage system I got an operation the same week that it was determined I needed it. That is not available to most Americans.
As a college student in Canada I, needed a routine gyn check up, asked a friend for the name of a GYN doctor, made an appointment, and found myself at the doctor’s office the next week in a lovely suburban neighborhood. It was like any very upscale doctors office in Manhattan, except no bills, no third degree about who I was. I had a local address and that was enough. I found out I was pregnant and told the doctor I wanted an abortion, and within a few days, it was determined that I was a good candidate for an early abortion. The abortion took place in a modern university teaching hospital in the operating room, not a clinic in an office building as it is done in NYC or a grungy strip mall clinic with a bunch of lunatics screaming at your car and in your face is how most women outside NYC have to approach having an abortion.
What is wrong with our country is how people like Jenny think, they are like lemmings and believe what ever party line our government feeds them (don’t forget the Iraq mess), she is too lazy to think for herself and goes along with what is spoon-fed status quo. Big business interests rule everything in our country. If they could sell us policing and fire department, they would !
Ok,I think that it is a little harsh and unfair to equate Jenny with a “lemming” that is too lazy to think for herself. Geez…Just maybe she has worked and sacrificed to get where she is and she doesn’t want to see her taxes go up even higher than they already are.We all know that there is a price for everything-even “free” healthcare. With the lack of leadership in this country,it’s hard to trust any of these self-serving politicians. As it is,our national debt is over 8 trillion dollars-and we continue to borrow from other countries.I would love to see universal healthcare implemented but it scares the hell out of me to imagine how the idiots in Washington will screw that up,too.
You are preaching to the choir here. I am an RN who has worked the past 10 years in our current healthcare system. It is broken in so many ways. Change must occur. Soon.
JB, it’s this simple: it’s about priorities.
If you want universal healthcare and you want to see equal access for ALL Americans, then you pay the taxes necessary to make that happen.
If you don’t want those things, you permit the system to remain as it is.
The fact that the Dim Son has run up our national debt to unthinkable levels is not a justification for continuing a system where profit is put over health of America’s citizens.
Comparatively speaking, as far as taxes are concerned, Americans pay next to nothing, but we want all of the benefits of those countries where citizens realize that taxes are part of contributing to the health of their respective countries. Typical lazy American sense of entitlement. You want good things? You have to pay for them. Period.
I understand your point,Laura,and I agree.However,I do see how some people would feel about carrying the weight of others-although I personally don’t think that,that is the best way to think as far as our country as a whole is concerned.Maybe that is what the problem is-too many people are more concerned with playing the game by the winner-takes-all rule and have forgotten the humanitarian side of life.I have debated this issue with my friend off and on all day and he thinks similarly to how Jenny seems to think.He joined the service,put himself through college while working fulltime and feels that everyone has the same opportunities to succeed.It irks him to have to pay for someone else to sit around,make no sacrifices and reap the benefits of his sweat equity.
JB your friend who worked so hard has an unfortunate way of thinking and that is that people who aren’t insured are not working or making sacrifices. On the contrary, self-employed people who are either not yet profitable enough or simply cannot get the premiums down to a reasonable level work really hard and sacrifice time away from family.
The working poor often have multiple jobs sacrificing time from family and sacrificing their own health in an attempt to rise from the poverty trap. Read Nickel and Dimed: On (Not) Getting By in America by Barbara Ehrenreich (ISBN: 0805063897
And if they are not contributing now, does not mean they have not contributed in the past. Certainly as a serviceman he can appreciate that certain jobs come with certain risks which could lay a fireman or policeman or construction work (for 3 examples) out of work and without means to get health care.
As our society ages, these folks may become unable to work and may lose benefits. Certainly they have contributed to society in their past!
For those who don’t want to pay for others, they already are–Medicaid, higher costs due to hospitals absorbing the costs of some people who don’t pay, etc.
For me, the scariest thing about the US system is the way that people WITH insurance can often end up bankrupt by their medical bills. The other thing that’s scary is how hard it can be for someone with a preexisting condition to get coverage. That may not be you today, but it could be you tomorrow.
Last year I read a really interesting book called “Uninsured in America” — I’d recommend it to anybody interested in the topic. The authors talk about the “death spiral” — where people too young for Medicare and ineligible for Medicaid get sick. If you’re too sick to work, you can lose your benefits in a hurry. If you lose your benefits, you can’t get the treatment you need. People with untreated illnesses can become unemployable more quickly than you might think.
We lived without employer health insurance from 1997, when our oldest son was a baby, until 2003. I am convinced that privately purchased health insurance is one of the biggest rackets going.
In the middle of that time, we spent two years living in the UK. The NHS has many problems, and I understand that the system is much more strained now than when we were there. But at that time, for Joe and Jane Average it was a far better system than the one we have here.
And I can’t speak for every state, but Medicaid doesn’t necessarily cover every low-income person. I looked into the Tennessee program before I knew my DH had secured a job in Canada. As a pregnant woman with an unemployed husband, I could have qualified for Medicaid. But if I recall correctly, my husband couldn’t have. Same income, but different category. Pregnant women and children are a high priority for the system. Adults aren’t.
Beware of comparing healthcare based on infant mortality. The standards for measurement are wildly different, with the United States using the World Health Organization standard, which is the most strict. By contrast, many countries don’t count a child below a certain birth weight, or a certain length, or who showed vital signs for less than a certain period of time, as having been alive, and therefore don’t consider its death a mortality.
More here.
I agree that infant mortality is an inexact comparison, due to how much more care super-premature babies get in this country (often with ultimately very negative outcomes).
A better question to ask is, what percentage of Americans are able to afford routine pediatric and pediatric dental care for their babies/children?
“. . . Typical lazy American sense of entitlement. You want good things? You have to pay for them. Period.”
Exactly.
Obstetric care and some amount of rudimentary pediatric medical and dental care seem like the most humane and cost-effective steps we can take.
Beyond that, I’m incredibly reluctant to get the .gov more involved in healthcare. I don’t much care for politicians, and no matter what party you belong to it isn’t hard to imagine the problems created if the other party is running the health system.
Our current obligations for social security and Medicare/Medicaid means that we’re essentially bankrupt as is. (And Bush just piled on more unfunded obligations with his Medicare prescription coverage.) We can’t afford afford the government healthcare we’re promising people now, much less universal healthcare.
Well, of course you’d have to tax more, Les. That’s the way that works.
But you’d also spend a lot less money on insurance, too. Don’t people pay something like a sixth of their income to insurance?
Jenny, you say “Exactly,” thinking that you are oh-so-clever, but all that you have really done is prove my point about you and those who think like you do.
Have you ever been to another country, to see the way that other countries do things? The good old U. S. of A. ain’t hardly that. In fact, I find that I actually dread returning to the United States after a trip overseas, especially if I am coming from Japan.
Even in Mexico, which so many Americans consider to be dirt underneath our feet, has aspects of its healthcare that are far preferable to American medicine. For one thing, common sense prevails. They do not depend on antibiotics for every little thing. Mexican healthcare is also much more approachable than American doctors, and health is seen as an aspect of the family, of the community as a whole. In Mexican medicine, you always consult with the actual doctor, and it is longer than your allotted 15 minutes as most American doctors schedule patients these days. Prescription medication is every bit as good as what we buy here in America but it is only a fraction of the American cost. There is also a continued interest in the Mexican diet, despite its unhealthier aspects, with seasonal fruits and vegetables, and delicious fresh seafood. Mexicans also have a slower overall approach to life, with the siesta in the afternoon still being a national custom.
Laura,it’s funny how they seem to be rushing up here after their laid back siesta’s to take advantage of our horrible healthcare system though,isn’t it?
JB: cite your proof of this, please.
And I will warn you ahead of time: I live in Arizona, so you won’t be able to fudge your “facts” when it comes to your racism. My God, you are hateful.
Incidentally, one might argue that it is in fact the jobs that bring Mexicans to the States, not the healthcare, but I will be anxiously awaiting your reply.
Katie, the thing is, our FICA withholdings are supposed to pay for Social Security and Medicaid/Medicare obligations, but they’re not. The FICA withholdings would have to be raised significantly just to pay for current obligations, without adding any new obligations (such as universal healthcare). (See the USA Today link I posted above.)
We haven’t even faced the reality of paying for current SS/Medicare/Medicaid obligations. And without raising the FICA contributions those programs are going to collapse in the next few decades. It’s crazy to talk about adding new programs when our current programs aren’t sustainable without increased taxes, reduced benefits, a sliding scale pegged to income, or some other changes.
The current Medicare/Medicaid system could certainly be improved. You pay into it your entire working life in hopes that you live long enough to collect largely unlimited medical benefits in your retirement. That’s nuts - it’s virtually a medical benefits lottery where the winners are the ones who live long enough to collect. You should be able to use some amount of those benefits during your working years.
Maybe if the American government didn’t spend so much money bombing other countries back into the Stone Age, it would be able to take care of its own citizens a little better? Then again, if this is the way the American government treats its own people, what hope is there for the non-Americans who get in its way?
Regarding taxes, etc., see here:
http://www.knoxviews.com/node/4962
A worker making $50K in France or the UK takes home $7000 more than his/her US counterpart, who still has to buy insurance and most also pay state and local income taxes.
Health care expenditures as a % of GDP are 15.2% in the US, as compared to 9.9% in Canada, 8% in the UK, and 10.1% in France.
So we are already spending more money and not getting a good result. Plus the high cost of medical insurance makes our labor and our products less competitive in the global markets, causing companies like GM and even Wal*Mart to warm to the idea of single-payer national health insurance.
Also, be wary of right-wing conservatives claiming that Social Security and Medicare are bankrupt. What this is about is a) baby boomers are entering retirement age, and the Gen X and Y folks are going to have to foot the bill for pensions and health care, and b) they would rather keep the money for themselves because they are young and immortal and see no value in it.
This is a shortsighted view that will come back to haunt them as they approach retirement age.
P.S. Good discussion, Katie.
P.P.S. Anyone reading here from France? I need some help on exactly how the “social security” and insurance deductions are calculated….
Hmmm… problem is the truth might sound mean or hateful and not so PC to some,but the fact remains that the only healthcare system that we NOW have is obviously strained by the vast ammount of non tax-paying illegal aliens pouring into this country.(Estimates range from as few as 7 million to as many as 20 million people depending on who is doing the counting.)These are all people who don’t share in the financial responsibility of our inadequate,purportedly failing Medicaid/Medicare system.No matter what kind of insurance/healthcare we have the bottom line is that our leaders need to address this problem because it’s not going to magically go away- even with a change to universal healthcare.
“Also, be wary of right-wing conservatives claiming that Social Security and Medicare are bankrupt. What this is about is a) baby boomers are entering retirement age, and the Gen X and Y folks are going to have to foot the bill for pensions and health care, and b) they would rather keep the money for themselves because they are young and immortal and see no value in it.”
The baby bust is part of it, but other issues are increasing life expectancy (meaning people are taking out of the system post-retirement longer than was expected) and increasing demand for and expectation of medical care no matter the expense.
I’ll ignore your part b, since it’s just a rant.
The baby bust issue is a huge problem for all intergenerational wealth transfer systems. (That is, systems where people of working age pay for the benefits of people are retired, which is how SS and Medicare/Medicaid work.)
Europe is going to hit the wall in a huge way. While the U.S. birthrate is enough for replacement levels (if just barely) the Europeans are well below replacement birthrates and have been for a while. Japan had its first population decline last year.
If there aren’t enough people of working age paying into the system to support the retirees, how do you supposed the system wil survive? More to the point, if you’re a college grad in Germany and are facing a lifetime of huge taxes to pay for your country’s poorly-considered retirement program, why wouldn’t you just move to another country that doesn’t have that problem?
Sicko review roundup…
Here are some local SiCKO reviews from last Friday’s showing:
• Cathy McCaughan
• Doug McCaughan
• Tommy’s blog (Cathy and Doug’s son)
• Sarah’s blog (Cathy and Doug’s daughter)
• Whites Creek Steve
• Russ McBee
&bull…
“but the fact remains that the only healthcare system that we NOW have is obviously strained by the vast ammount of non tax-paying illegal aliens pouring into this country.”
Immigrants DO pay taxes. If you’re that worried about taxes, complain about the wealthy who manipulate the system.
I would venture to say that the majority of illegal immigrants aren’t paying income taxes and aren’t purchasing health insurance,but of course there are exceptions.The businesses that hire illegals likely aren’t offering health insurance so many illegals go to E.R’s and so-called “free” clinics that are subsidized by law abiding citizens that can’t even get the healthcare or insurance that they need for their own families.There is no endless supply of money.Our country budgets money and borrows money to pay debts.If we are spending and borrowing more than is necessary on things that we can’t afford then It’s a problem and certainly worthy of concern.I am a strong and active believer in being charitable,but there comes a time when you have to take care of things at home and this is one of many things that we could shave off our expenditure list.I would like to think that we could implement this in a humane and equitable way for everyone involved.What I don’t understand is where the comment “If you’re that worried about taxes complain about the wealthy who manipulate the system” comes from.
By the way,thanks to Les Jones for the info here.
I have read that about two-thirds of illegal immigrants file taxes. They use fake Social Security numbers which allows them to have taxes taken out of their check. The IRS also issues them identification numbers so they can file taxes. Most illegal immigrants want to estabilish a tax paying history in case there is ever an amnesty bill passed. It allows them to establish residency.
Thanks Sarah,Interesting info.If there are a minimum of 7 million illegals here (the numbers I’ve researched vary from 7 mil up to aproximately 20 million) and one third of them don’t pay taxes that is still well over 2 MILLION people (at a minimum) that are not contributing to the system.That’s alot of lost revenue.
Yes, you are right. It is a problem. If you look at the other side of the coin though, millions of illegals are paying into the system and not receiving the benefits of it. If an illegal uses a fake social security number, he/she will never be able to qualify for social security because the number and the name don’t match up. Filing taxes with an identification number also does not allow them to apply for an earned income tax credit or apply for benefits.
Most illegals who don’t have taxes withheld or who don’t pay taxes on non-employee compensation, do not make over the minimum wage. Many of them, if they filed, would receive a refund above taxes owed due to the earned income tax credit, which helps the working poor.
The biggest tax gap is caused by under-reporting of income by the self-employed (owning their own business). The money earned by these persons far exceeds money earned by ill-paid illegal immigrants.
Sounds unfair but I guess it must be worth it to them to stay here instead of their own country.I think the minimum wage there is a little less than $5.00 an hour depending on the region they live in.I don’t know anything about the healthcare there.But lets not forget that it is a privilege for them to be here and they do have access to our clinics,hospitals,schools,libraries, ESL classes etc.etc. So,it’s not such a bad deal for them especially since they have broken our laws.If you or I blatantly broke a law we would be required to pay a consequence.As citizens we have inherent rights as illegals,they are lucky to be here.
In the northeast,where I live, mexican laborors are paid a minimum of 10 dollars an hour cash.There are no paychecks for these people.
Immigrants buy gasoline. They buy food. They buy clothing. They pay taxes.
The minimum wage in Mexico is about 50 pesos a day which translates to about $4.50 a day. I think their health care system is quite good if you can get access to it. I am sympathetic to the immigrants plight. Yes, they broke a law, but I think for them it is choosing the lesser of two evils. I think most would probably prefer to stay in their own country and earn a decent living there. Illegal immigration is a drain on our economy(and thereby are health care system), I won’t argue with that. I am just not sure how to fix it.
Um,OK……Our income taxes go toward foodstamps,rental assistance,energy assistance,law enforcement,homeland security,education,job training, medicaid and other federal programs just to name a few.You aren’t alone,Sarah.I don’t know what the answer is either.There has to be a humane way to address it,though.
“A worker making $50K in France or the UK takes home $7000 more than his/her US counterpart, who still has to buy insurance and most also pay state and local income taxes.”
He may take it home, but he won’t get to keep it for long due to VAT and other consumption taxes. Here are the Nationmaster.com stats for taxes as a percent of GDP:
#1 Sweden: 54.2 % of GDP
#2 Denmark: 48.8 % of GDP
#3 Finland: 46.9 % of GDP
#4 Belgium: 45.6 % of GDP
#5 France: 45.3 % of GDP
#6 Austria: 43.7 % of GDP
#7 Italy: 42 % of GDP
#8 Netherlands: 41.4 % of GDP
#9 Norway: 40.3 % of GDP
#10 Germany: 37.9 % of GDP
#11 United Kingdom: 37.4 % of GDP
#12 Canada: 35.8 % of GDP
#13 Switzerland: 35.7 % of GDP
#14 New Zealand: 35.1 % of GDP
#15 Australia: 31.5 % of GDP
#16 Ireland: 31.1 % of GDP
#17 United States: 29.6 % of GDP
Or for a more concrete statistic, the number of hours you have to work to buy a TV set:
#1 Belgium: 68 hours
#2 Australia: 50 hours
#3 Italy: 44 hours
#4 Austria: 42 hours
#5 Germany: 32 hours
#6 Ireland: 32 hours
#7 United Kingdom: 28 hours
#8 Switzerland: 22 hours
#9 France: 22 hours
#10 Norway: 22 hours
#11 New Zealand: 20 hours
#12 Finland: 20 hours
#13 United States: 15 hours
#14 Japan: 15 hours
#15 Denmark: 13 hours
JB, Americans like you make me ashamed to be an American myself.
It also makes me wonder what in the hell my brother died for. To enable ignorance and racist attitudes such as yours?
But Les, their taxes pay for different things, so they can’t really compare to ours. You’re just using statistics to scare people.
To make it close to fair, you’d have to count all of our medical expenses as taxes - including insurance, copays, unpaid bills, deaths of uninsurable family members, plus factoring in longer paid time after the baby is born.
Then how do the numbers look? I can tell you right now that Katie and I might be in the US with less taxes, but we are in no position whatsoever to buy your hypothetical television, due to the massive costs of healthcare.
Is that Katie, or Jon?
As I understand it the UK system doesn’t have copays, but the French system does. As far as other factors, how about wait times, cleanliness (something UK hospitals have a poor reputation for), modern facilities and equipment, and treatment efficacy.
And you can’t afford a television? You’ve blogged about the fact that two of your kids go to private school and you just bought a new minivan.
Laura,I am sure that the pain from losing your brother must be excrutiating for you and your family.I am sorry that you are suffering so much and wish you peace.Just to be clear,It doesn’t matter to me what race or nationality illegal immigrants are.However,I do believe that everyone should have to follow the rules and laws-just as my ancestors did when they came to this country.I don’t believe that any particular race should be given preferential treatment (in most cases).I am sorry that you choose to prejudge my opinions and twist them into something that they are not.I can see that you are suffering and I am sorry that you are feeling so angry.If I had read your whole post (explaining your frustration) I would not have jokingly made the comment that I made, but I felt that your comment to Jenny was presumptuously mean.
Please provide several examples of how “illegals” are not subject to the laws of this country. And I don’t really think that Mexicans are their own “race,” are they?
The loss of my brother has nothing to do with you, so you can stop patronizing me. Your words require no twisting by me, believe me. It’s loud and clear, what lies in your heart.
I think JB means that illegals break the law to get into the country. You are breaking the law if you are here without a valid visa. Once here I am sure that most illegals follow the laws of our country.
Les - sorry about that. I didn’t realize I was logged in as Katie. I also managed to rescue your comment from spam false positive hell.
And to answer your questions, the grandparents pay for the school, the car was a necessity that we were barely able to get, and no, we can’t get a tv. Why? Because of the medical bills that happen after a miscarriage and then a perfectly normal pregnancy. And we have “good” insurance.
The current system is very broken. I know you don’t like paying more taxes (I’m still not convinced you’d be paying more, since you’d lose the middle man), but surely you don’t think this is the ideal system?
edit: I don’t mean to say we’re in the poor house or anything. We’re just paying way way too much for medical stuff that we shouldn’t have to pay for. And if our tv broke today, I don’t think we’d replace it, because we’ve got to pay all those bills that keep showing up in the mail.
I realize things can get tight around new baby time. When our first was born we had four days of hospitilazation before the birth for pregnancy-induced high blood pressure, then we wound up with a C-section, then extra time in the hospital, and all told we had three or four thousand dollars of co-pays.
I don’t think the current system is ideal. I’d like to see some funds shifted towards ob and childhood care, and some allowances for care during working years. But somewhere that’s got to get paid for. With increased FICA, or sliding scales based on earnings and wealth, or something. It won’t come free.
I absolutely do not want universal healthcare controlled by politicians. The tempatition to buy votes in the short term by mortgaging the system against future generations will be too tempting for politicians, as shown by George Bush’s unfunded Medicare prescription benefit.
I expect many European health care programs to collapse within the next few decades, and certainly within my and your lifetimes. Their unfunded healthcare liabilities are out of control.
Even more succinct argument - making the government pay for something doesn’t magically make that something free.
I don’t want the “government” to pay for it. I want everyone to pay for it and everyone to get it. I don’t understand why healthcare isn’t a right.
And as someone said, why do you trust the government with nuclear weapons but not healthcare? And why do you trust Big Business more with healthcare than politicians and voters?
Big Business has already proved that it can’t handle it.
“I don’t want the “government” to pay for it. I want everyone to pay for it and everyone to get it”
If people can pay for it, why are we having this conversation? At some level this kind of plan depends on the perception that if the government provides the service it will suddenly be free, or at least cheaper.
“I don’t understand why healthcare isn’t a right.”
A right is something you can do without interference. Getting money and services from the government is an entitlement, not a right.
The reason I don’t trust the government to run healthcare is because of what they’re doing right now. Running up huge liabilities that can’t be paid for, and promising more care for no more money (as in Bush’s completely unfunded Medicare prescription benefit). It’s always going to be tempting to get themselves elected in the short term by compromising the financial integrity of the system in the long term.
The government’s already involved in it, and that’s probably not going to change, but I don’t want them taking it over.
But “we” are the government, Les. And when you take out the profit making middle man, healthcare might very well get cheaper.
And like I said, big business has already proved that it sucks at managing healthcare, so I don’t know why you think the “government” would be so much worse at it. At least then they could sit back and see what works and what doesn’t in existing systems and design one with that knowledge. We know the existing system here is completely wrong, but you’re so afraid of change that you’d stick with something that’s broken. That’s pretty sad.
And anyway, we really don’t have anything to lose.
My god we have everything to lose. What you’re talking about is socialist. It’s not that I want people to go without healthcare, or to have less than they need (sorry Laura, I don’t). It’s about the system of limited government created for us. What’s next? Is a good job a “right”? Should that be organized and assured? If so, then I suppose we should determine what everyone’s good at, so each can contribute his part most productively. I mean, please. See what you’re talking about.
What? Socialism is based on taxes? Do having police make us socialists? a post office? fire department? tdot? the fcc?
What do you mean we have “everything” to lose? Has France lost it all? Canada? England? No. They pay a hair more in taxes and a hell of a lot less in medical expenses.
People over here are so very afraid of change that we’d stay on a sinking ship for fear that the new ship would sink faster.
Forget the labels. I for one don’t know or care what they really mean. Labels are just used to scare people. Our current system is broken. There are better ways to do it. Paying a profit-seeking middle man a huge amount of money so you can get basic healthcare is messed up.
Laura,I’m sorry that your choice to remain bitter stands in the way of your capability to recognize a genuine condolence.You know nothing about what is in my heart,but I know a hell of alot about how you continually choose to remain consumed by hateful,misplaced anger.You may be hurt and angry but that doesn’t give you the right to bully those that don’t think as you do.People are only going to give you a pass for so long.You aren’t the only person on the face of this earth that has suffered from the death of a loved one protecting our country.Yet,you are the first to accuse others of being hateful or racist.You say that you don’t want to be patronized but you think it’s ok to project your hatefullness and randomly patronize others with your presumptions.This discussion is an interesting exchange of ideas but your irrational,convoluted accusations and assumptions are riculous. Maybe you would be able to see another point of view if you weren’t so obsessed with yourself. Do I empathize with your loss? Yes. Am I greatful for our soldiers and their valor? Absolutely,positively yes.But am I going to sit back and take your sh*t? Oh,hell no! The only ignorant American that you should be ashamed of is yourself because you don’t even know what the hell is going on in your own state,let alone the country: In 2002, illegals
cost the federal prison and court systems $1.6
billion. Your state,the state of ARIZONA spends $80
million each year incarcerating illegals. “In Los
Angeles, 95 percent of all outstanding warrants for
homicide (which total 1,200 to 1,500) target illegal
aliens. City
Journal’s Heather Mac DonaldThe Social Services
Factor: Illegals are not American citizens, and yet
they sap social services and cost hospitals billions
of dollars in unpaid-for health care. In 2002 illegals
cost the federal government $2.5 billion in Medicaid,
$1.9 billion in food assistance programs, and $2.2
billion in treatment for the uninsured. States near
the border suffer the biggest burden. For instance,
illegal immigrants’ health care costs ARIZONA alone
about $400 million each year.
Let me first state my belief on the socialized healthcare system so many of you want. I do not think that the government should be involved in the healthcare business (and yes it is a business). Though our healthcare system is not near perfect, it is the best that I have seen in my travels (England, Germany, Denmark, Japan, Korea, Mexico, and Thailand). If we didn’t have one of the best systems, why do we have so many people come to this country for treatment? The closest idea to a socialized healthcare system that I would agree to is some type of catastrophic healthcare cap. Say the Government would cover any medical bills over $20,000 in a year. This would help reduce the abuse of the system, and still put a major obligation on the person. I do not believe that we should be entitled to healthcare, or that it should be a right unless people are totally disabled and cannot provide for themselves due to a physical or serious mental condition. All else should work hard and pay for the services that they need.
I am retired Military and have seen first hand how the government handles medical care (under both political parties). Has no one been paying attention how they are treating the hero’s returning from Iraq and Afghanistan? The Military is the closest we come to socialized medicine, and I don’t know that I would like to see the entire system set up like it is in the military.
Thank goodness, I didn’t need to use the system very much when I was in, but all I ever heard were people complaining about the treatment. We did have problems with my daughters care, but I won’t go into that. I am glad that I now have access to civilian hospitals, and am free to go wherever I want or can afford.
I lived in England for two years, and the only good thing I heard about their system was that it was free. The people always complained about the time that it took to get in and at times, the poor service.
I have heard the same on the care in Canada. My former brother-in-law lives up there and has been waiting months for something that seems fairly serious to me.
I believe that once the government is involved in the actual healthcare business, the quality of service and all the choices you currently enjoy would go down. One of the things that motivates people to go into medicine in this country is the money, and once the government gets involved that would go away. People in the medical field would not get the wages they are worth. I know that will shock some of you, but I believe they earn the money they make (and no I’m not in the medical field).
Now for some of the comments that have been made above- Laura get out of the desert sun, it has warped your mind. You attack everyone, claiming they are racist, when they don’t agree with you, but it is you that bought race into the discussion. You attack people with no basis for your statements. You ask for proof, but offer none. The FACTS that people were reporting were just that, facts. Just because you don’t like those facts doesn’t make the people stating them racist. Throwing race in where it isn’t is what people that can’t support their argument with facts do. If you are so ashamed to be an American, leave and don’t come back. The great thing about America is that we can have differing opinions and can still respect each other! Something you haven’t seemed to learn.
JB and RC, don’t waste your energy on Laura. She was like this (on this site, at least) long before her brother died. This isn’t about her brother. She’s completely toxic. I hope to never encounter her in person.
Hey RC,I am greatful that heroes like you are out there protecting our country.Jenny,you are right about wasting my energy.Sorry to everyone for the rant,but she has alot of nerve.Does she actually think that she can spew her nasty accusations and not be accountable? I try to be tolerant but being called a hatefull person and a racist is just unacceptable.Apparently she has an issue with boundaries.Lets just say that I am very happy that I don’t live anywhere near Arizona.
Thank you JB, but I’m no hero, I just love my country and everything it stands for.
Jenny, you are right. All you can do is provide information and hope!
One thing I didn’t mention above is that the VA system has also been really bad for as long as I can remember. Free medical care sounds good, but you get what you pay for!
Jenny and JB, I’m linking to your amusing comments over on my blog. I love it when people call names and are presumptuous enough to feel as though it is their right to determine how and when and to what degree military families should grieve their loved one. Just more examples of that famous “compassionate conservatism,” I guess. As for Jonathan Hickman, you are attempting to reason with the unreasonable, I hope you know that. You could make the most salient points in the world and it would be lost on those whose hatred of those who “aren’t Merkins!” occludes their sight for anything else. Nice try, though…you make excellent and well-researched points.
Oh,Laura you silly girl.Who cares if you want to take a conversation out of context and put it on your trifling blog? Of course you wouldn’t mention whose blog this was said on because then everyone would see how you attack people and twist things to appear as if you were the victim instead of the bully.So if it makes you feel better and you think it’s going to influence people and win you friends then go for it.However,let me warn you that if people on your blog find out the whole truth you are going to look like a bigger lunatic than you already are.It’s no wonder you don’t accept comments on your blog-that’s your way of controlling your maniacal little world.Oh,and by the way, where are YOUR facts? You have added absolutely nothing to what was an interesting exchange of ideas.
Laura, again you spout your ignorance! You don’t know anything about JB, Jenny or I, but you call us racists. In the first place, I didn’t realize “illegal” was a race. There are many people of different races that have chosen to break the law and come to America without going through the proper channels. According to Rand Corporation (http://www.kold.com/Global/story.asp?S=5688664), they are costing our country a Billion Dollars in health care alone. If we didn’t have those kinds of expenses, we may be able to treat our own people allot better. That is not racist it’s pure economics. The conversation in this blog was on health care, I don’t understand why you keep calling people racists. Point out one thing that was said that was racist! You call us idiots, but can’t and won’t discuss the facts that have been discussed. Laura, you are unarmed in a battle of wits!
This is not to disrespect Jonathan (at least he makes some points) but, you say Jonathan Hickman makes excellent and well-researched points. He has some points, but I don’t know how researched they are. I agree with some of what he says but not all. Why do you believe the Government would do better then private industry? I have given examples as to why I think they wouldn’t. As for the Police, Fire Departments and post office making us socialist, no, but there are limits to what services the government should provide. Where does it stop? Then he talks about a hair more in taxes. In the first place, it’s not a hair more: France pays up to 50% in taxes; Canada 31.6%; England 33.5%; and we pay 29.1%. And that gets them inferior care! I have never said our system is perfect, but I believe it is the best out there. If not, why do so many people come here for healthcare?
One more point, the only reason I said you could leave and not come back was because you said “The good old U. S. of A. ain’t hardly that. In fact, I find that I actually dread returning to the United States after a trip overseas, especially if I am coming from Japan.” When I return to the good old USA I am glad and proud to be back! I have seen how it is in other countries and am happy with my country.
Okay, Laura, you got me, I got curious. And guess what? You got the wrong person. PLEASE show me what I’ve ever said hostile to breastfeeding. I support breastfeeding and have said multiple times that if I could have, I would have. Get a better memory.
By the way, when I said that they pay just a little more in tax, I was going off of Randy Neal’s research, eg here but also in other places on knoxviews.
Jonathan, I’m not sure whose numbers are closer, but after living in England for 2 years, I would be really surprised if they pay that little. They have some really high taxes (or at least they did when I was there). You paid a couple hundred dollars a year just for TV, cars were even worse. Here is a link you might be interested in concerning health care:
http://www.rand.org/pubs/corporate_pubs/2005/RAND_CP484.1.pdf
pages 16, 17 and 27 are very interesting!
As it is we already spend the most on health care, I just can’t imagine what it would cost if it were “free”. If it were as little as you think, that would be one thing, but I just think if you make people responsible for a portion, they are much more frugal and would only go when it was absolutely necessary.
Thanks for the reference though! (by the way, Rand is a really good source for unbiased information)
The kinds of issues being discussed here are what led me to found http://www.healthcarepromise.org
Check out the website - it is one way to help move the country toward healthcare for all.